Issue with the C2 ... slack on pull back ??

[Bob S.]

So the question is, how important is technique for getting the most out of your time spent excercising on the C2?

This thread addresses one of the main issues of rowing efficiently either OTW or OTE and that is getting the most out of the legs - using them early and getting the full thrust out of them. One critical point is the avoidance of slide-shooting, or bum-shoving as they say in the UK. That wastes a lot of the power of the quads, which are normally the strongest muscles of the body.

Bob S.

[Bagger]

OK ... I've had more time on the C2 trying to watch my technic closely. The last couple times I've rowed, seems like the 'slack' has been reduced a great deal. It is not gone, but may be reduced to 6 to 12 inches depending on how closely I'm watching.

Seems that the fly wheel needs to slow down drastically to get the full resistance of the pull back. This requires considerable slowing down of the recovery phase of the movement prior to the catch. This takes considerable concentration for me. I'm used to faster relates to more work. This seems not to be the case.

I may not have all the numbers that you may want to see, but I'll post today's workout and let you folks chime in on what you think. I wished I knew how to preserve the numbers. Perhaps I should read the manual, eh.

When I started my 30 minute row this morning, I started out at what I tho't was a slow pace. Around 24 s/m and around 50-60 avg/watts. As I went thru the 1st 1000 meters, I started trying to keep the resistance high, deliberately slowing down on the recovery phase.

As I went thru the next 1000 meters, the stroke volume decreased to about 21-22 s/m and the watts per stroke went up to the high 70s. With continued concentration, the watts per stroke increased to the high 80s ... into the 90s and occasionally went into the low 100s during the last 1500 meters. And, the perceived work/effort increased.

The workout ended like this: 30 minutes at level 4 on the fan, 5486 meters, 78 avg watts. I don't know what to think of this, but I was a bit winded, but not terribly so. BTW, my legs were a bit tired from riding my mountain bike 10 miles yesterday for the first time in several weeks. I also felt that even tho my legs felt some of the workout today, I still think a great deal of the rowing is done with my upper body.

Comments/reactions/recommendations?

Thanx.

[Cyclist2]

The description you just gave would indicate to me that you are shooting the slide. That pace and power is just a warmup pace, even for beginners and if you can ride a MTB for 10 miles (on more than flat roads, I assume), then you are doing something wrong. Post a video if possible.

[Bob S.]

I'm used to faster relates to more work. This seems not to be the case.

Faster does mean more work and is measured by the monitor as watts, the work done per unit time. It does not mean rate, the number of strokes per minute, although higher rates generally will produce faster times - up to a point.

Incidentally, most forum members are more used to using pace (time/500m) rather than watts. Pace is proportional to the inverse cube root of the wattage. The number of watts is more meaningful for the physics of the erg, but the early users, OTW rowers, were used to thinking in terms of speed on the water and it was incorporated into the erg monitors as pace. 100 watts corresponds to a pace of 2:31.8/500m, a quite leisurely pace.

You used a term "stroke volume." Stroke rate would be more readily understood on this forum. Another term you used was "watts per stroke." Literally, that would be the average watts divided by the stroke rate, whereas I think that you really meant just the average wattage. Watts divided by stroke rate has been called "stroke power index." usually abbreviated as SP! and would range from 3 or 4 at the lowest up to a limit of around 20. SPI has its uses, but has often been misused on the C2 forums.

Re preserving the numbers: The monitor stores quite a bit of the data, but the most convenient way to get it is to use the LogCard and and a card reader to transfer the data to your computer. An alternative is to connect the computer directly to the monitor with the USB cord.

The following is a copy of a spreadsheet that I made of the data from my first workout of the season last June:

Date Ended @ Time Meters SPM HR /500m Cal/hr Watts
Cool Down
6/20/11 10:17 05:00.0 1045 19 126 02:23.5 707 118
Split or Work Interval Results
6/20/11 10:17 00:30.0 112 24 115 02:13.9 801 146
6/20/11 10:17 01:00.0 112 24 122 02:13.9 801 146
6/20/11 10:17 01:30.0 108 22 126 02:18.8 749 131
6/20/11 10:17 02:00.0 107 22 129 02:20.1 737 127
6/20/11 10:17 02:30.0 105 20 132 02:22.8 713 120
6/20/11 10:17 03:00.0 105 20 131 02:22.8 713 120
6/20/11 10:17 03:30.0 103 18 130 02:25.6 690 113
6/20/11 10:17 04:00.0 104 18 130 02:24.2 701 117
6/20/11 10:17 04:30.0 096 16 127 02:36.2 615 092
6/20/11 10:17 05:00.0 093 14 123 02:41.2 587 083

20'@20spm
6/20/11 10:11 20:00.0 4272 20 130 02:20.4 734 126
Split or Work Interval Results
6/20/11 10:11 01:00.0 213 20 107 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 02:00.0 210 20 118 02:22.8 713 120
6/20/11 10:11 03:00.0 214 20 123 02:20.1 737 127
6/20/11 10:11 04:00.0 212 20 125 02:21.5 725 124
6/20/11 10:11 05:00.0 212 20 130 02:21.5 725 124
6/20/11 10:11 06:00.0 211 20 130 02:22.1 719 122
6/20/11 10:11 07:00.0 213 20 130 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 08:00.0 213 20 131 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 09:00.0 215 20 134 02:19.5 743 129
6/20/11 10:11 10:00.0 215 20 136 02:19.5 743 129
6/20/11 10:11 11:00.0 213 20 133 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 12:00.0 213 20 133 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 13:00.0 213 20 131 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 14:00.0 213 20 133 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 15:00.0 213 20 134 02:20.8 731 125
6/20/11 10:11 16:00.0 215 20 136 02:19.5 743 129
6/20/11 10:11 17:00.0 215 20 136 02:19.5 743 129
6/20/11 10:11 18:00.0 216 20 137 02:18.8 749 131
6/20/11 10:11 19:00.0 214 20 136 02:20.1 737 127
6/20/11 10:11 20:00.0 219 20 136 02:16.9 768 136

Warm Up
6/20/11 09:46 05:00.0 1043 19 111 02:23.8 704 118
Split or Work Interval Results
6/20/11 09:46 00:30.0 098 16 088 02:33.0 635 098
6/20/11 09:46 01:00.0 097 14 097 02:34.6 625 095
6/20/11 09:46 01:30.0 100 18 103 02:30.0 656 104
6/20/11 09:46 02:00.0 101 18 108 02:28.5 667 107
6/20/11 09:46 02:30.0 105 20 112 02:22.8 713 120
6/20/11 09:46 03:00.0 105 20 115 02:22.8 713 120
6/20/11 09:46 03:30.0 107 22 118 02:20.1 737 127
6/20/11 09:46 04:00.0 107 22 121 02:20.1 737 127
6/20/11 09:46 04:30.0 112 24 125 02:13.9 801 146
6/20/11 09:46 05:00.0 112 24 126 02:13.9 801 146

Bob S.

[Bagger]

The description you just gave would indicate to me that you are shooting the slide. That pace and power is just a warmup pace, even for beginners and if you can ride a MTB for 10 miles (on more than flat roads, I assume), then you are doing something wrong. Post a video if possible.

Well, this is disappointing. I tho't I was making progress. Watching most of the strokes in the mirrors in the workout area ... concentrating on the various positions. (sigh ...)

I may be shooting the slide, or some other poor technic thingie.

I'll try to post a vid. I'm not all that techy, but have done some YouTube vids of some motorcycle stuff. I'll try to see if I can remember how to do so. I may need some help.

Bob .... I looked at the PM a minute ago. It has stored all the rows (I didn't know that), and found the Logcard, too. I'll start using that.

Changing the watts to other units gave me this:
30:07.6 minutes 5486 meters 2:44.7 /500 20 s/m

I'm charging my GoPro ... which I'm not all that familiar with either. I'll try to get a vid and post it. I'm sure you folks will be able to figure out what my problem is.

Always appreciate the help.

[jvincent]

The workout ended like this: 30 minutes at level 4 on the fan, 5486 meters, 78 avg watts.

You just aren't pulling hard enough. And that pull needs to come mostly with your legs.

I'm relatively new and not nearly as strong as some of the others but for 30 minutes my last row was 7270m, SPM of 21, average power 185W. I use a drag factor of 115, which is pretty close to yours from what you said earlier.

You need to figure how to pull harder or it will be difficult to get more distance. Remember, the harder you pull, the more resistance you will feel.

[Bagger]

You just aren't pulling hard enough. And that pull needs to come mostly with your legs.

I'm relatively new and not nearly as strong as some of the others but for 30 minutes my last row was 7270m, SPM of 21, average power 185W. I use a drag factor of 115, which is pretty close to yours from what you said earlier.

You need to figure how to pull harder or it will be difficult to get more distance. Remember, the harder you pull, the more resistance you will feel.

Yeah, most of the power I'm generating seems to be coming from my back/arms ... upper body. I try to get more from the drive with my legs ... and I "appear" to be accomplishing such from what I can see. But, apparently not.

[Bob S.]

Well, this is disappointing. I tho't I was making progress. Watching most of the strokes in the mirrors in the workout area ... concentrating on the various positions. (sigh ...)

I may be shooting the slide, or some other poor technic thingie.

It is very difficult to spot your own technique flaws, even with a mirror. A couple of years ago a friend took a still shot of me during a 2k competition. She caught the end of the stroke, and when she showed it to me, I was shocked to see that I had a typical "mantis grip" - a definite no-no - the wrists are supposed to be kept flat. In all my years of rowing OTW and more recently on the erg, I had no idea that I had developed that flaw. Even with a video, it helps to run it in slo-mo to really analyze it. Incidentally, it is essential to have the camera aimed at the side of the erg and far enough away to see all of the rower and all of the motion. And, of course, there has to be enough light to show everything.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

The workout ended like this: 30 minutes at level 4 on the fan, 5486 meters, 78 avg watts. I don't know what to think of this, but I was a bit winded, but not terribly so. BTW, my legs were a bit tired from riding my mountain bike 10 miles yesterday for the first time in several weeks. I also felt that even tho my legs felt some of the workout today, I still think a great deal of the rowing is done with my upper body.

To give this some perspective, the spread sheets that I recently posted showed an exercise workout of 20 minutes at a steady 20 spm and an energy output of 126 watts average (4272m). I also included the warm up and cool down which were each done at 118 watts average. I don't know your age, but I was 86 when that workout was done (June last year) and I have never done less than 6k in a 30 minute piece - even in light workouts.

Bob S.

[Bagger]

Thanx again, Bob.

I just finished watching several YouTube vids regarding 'Leg Drive' and 'Intensity'. Some from Concept2, some from others. I see what is necessary, but putting that into action may not be that easy.

I'm watching Arnold Palmar's Invitational ... I love golf and constantly try to improve on my technic. I practice nearly every day to some extent. I think I swing like some of the 'older pros', but on video ... I do not.

BTW .... you have 20 years on me, Bob. (written with a nod and a smile of humility) I can only hope to gain more from your knowledge and experience.

[carlb]

It is very difficult to spot your own technique flaws, even with a mirror.

I like having mirrors when rowing at home, but trying to row and watch yourself does let you see everything. Shooting Video and watching it afterwards is more useful. You get to see your entire stroke, and a see lot of them.

[Cyclist2]

I agree about mirrors vs video. However, back when I was learning to erg (1982, model A) I set up a tall mirror horizontally on one side and a long piece of plywood with the correct lay back angle and vertical shin marked on it on my other side. I positioned them so that when I looked in the mirror I could compare my body against the marks on the plywood. That method provided immediate feedback and helped cure my excessive lay back. Today's video technology probably works better - I have used that to refine my position on my time trial bicycle - but the mirror/plywood setup was pretty effective. In bagger's case, maybe a similar side-looking setup could highlight his (suspected) slide shooting.

[Rockin Roland]

You just aren't pulling hard enough. And that pull needs to come mostly with your legs.

You need to figure how to pull harder or it will be difficult to get more distance. Remember, the harder you pull, the more resistance you will feel.

No, No, No.

You don't do any pulling. The legs push , not pull. And the upper body isn't supposed to pull either.
The legs push against the footplates and at the same time the rest of the body hangs off the handle from the momentum generated from the leg push.

If you are having problems then I suggest that you purchase some slides to place underneath the erg. They'll help you get your body sequence right. Unfortunately the standard static erg is a long way off simulating the feel of a boat moving under you, hence the reason for many messing up the correct timing of moving their legs in realtion to their upper body. Static ergs have a tendency to encourage way too much upper body use, which is not a good thing, and leads to all sorts of problems.

[Carl Watts]

Or you can just NOT strap your feet in the foot stretchers and this will help you improve your timing and technique.

Also drop the rating, this slows everything down and allows your body to develop muscle memory which helps maitain your technique when you rate up again.

[hjs]

You just aren't pulling hard enough. And that pull needs to come mostly with your legs.

I'm relatively new and not nearly as strong as some of the others but for 30 minutes my last row was 7270m, SPM of 21, average power 185W. I use a drag factor of 115, which is pretty close to yours from what you said earlier.

You need to figure how to pull harder or it will be difficult to get more distance. Remember, the harder you pull, the more resistance you will feel.

Yeah, most of the power I'm generating seems to be coming from my back/arms ... upper body. I try to get more from the drive with my legs ... and I "appear" to be accomplishing such from what I can see. But, apparently not.

How manny watts can you do on a bike, also a relative low number, if so your general fitness is the biggest problem, if you can do a lot better on the bike its your technique that is keepig you down.

Session you can do trying to improve your power power are 1 minute rowing/ 1min rest, and keep going as long as you do do the next minute faster.