I too am having problems seeing the relevance of a few surface blemishes on a new C2.
Of course, you are well within your rights to ask for a better example of the machine, but I have yet to hear a reference to any of these blemishes having an impact on the functional performance of the machine.
The rust and surface tear may be of relevance to long-term life of the machine if you live in an area that has salt-laden air. In which case, you probably want to regularly dress the rower in protective oils of some sort or have it sent off for stripping and galvanizing of all the non stainless or plastic parts in any case (with or without blemishes).
Did you row any of these machines? were there any differences? Did the footrest bumps have any effect on your 2000m time?
Mike.
Concept2 - have they become shoddy?
OK, I admit I've been lurking on this one and would like to make a couple of comments. I don't think I need to get into the details of each photo and the issues of mold flash, gate vestiges, part texturing, powder coat painting, etc, but suffice to say that we at C2 engineering and QC have taken a close look at everything that has been mentioned here and are always appreciative of the feedback and support. Some of the items are indicative of possible problems that we either are addressing or will address. Most of the issues are of a cosmetic rather than functional concern, which I mention not to downplay them but simply to acknowledge their nature. Collectively I know that C2 has high standards for the products we put out, but we (C2 employees) also make judgment calls all the time about acceptability, and as such there are times when product gets out that may not be up to the expectations of the customer. In these cases the goal is pretty simple- satisfy the customer. C2JonW
72 year old grandpa living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
This is the best feedback Concept II could hope for..
Interesting discussion. As a former entrepreneur of some significant success I was always most appreciative of this sort of feedback. It is never easy to meet the most demanding of customer standards. However, knowing what these standards are simply sharpens the mission and helps the enterprise remain in a constant state of innovation.
Be it the condition of the product after delivery, the perfection of each component upon initial inspection, the capacity of the product to meet performance criteria...great companies continue to perfect their products in order to consistently EXCEED customer expectations. And, this is undertaken in light of the high bar customer - be it the prospect that has just made a commitment to be a customer or the long standing satisfied customer who has already found the enterprise and product worthy of continued support, loyalty and feedback.
Concept II is fortunate to have this input. It may be that older molds need to be changed out. It may mean that testing procedures need to be upgraded. It may mean that final inspection and cleaning needs to be enhanced. It may mean that shipping materials and packing methods should be reviewed. And, it may mean that when there is a disappointment, that the next machine shipped is reviewed in further detail in order to assure it is the best of the best in order to satisfy those who have more discerning standards for issues such cosmetics etc.
And, I could not disagree more with the notion that the two parties should part ways and admit an impass. Far from it. I believe concept II should go the absolute distance. Because if the enterprise to can determine what it takes to satisfy the most discerning customer - even the customer that places emphasis and value on cosmetics as well as performance...well, the result is clear - a more perfected product.
It may cause a review of the basic materials that components are manufactured from.
It may even mean a solution to the irritating black build-up and periodic clicking that seems to happen periodically - and sometimes in the middle of a new personal best record attempt!!!
Walk away respectfully from disappointment by writing it off as excessive micro-criticism? Hell no...more an invitation to a deeper and more productive relationship from which everyone learns and grows...so, maybe there will be a better machine as a result of this discussion...and if so...good for all of us. Now about the black build-up and annoying clicks?????
Good communities advance value and values through this essential process. Good on all of you for taking the time to further the mission of Concept II.
Be it the condition of the product after delivery, the perfection of each component upon initial inspection, the capacity of the product to meet performance criteria...great companies continue to perfect their products in order to consistently EXCEED customer expectations. And, this is undertaken in light of the high bar customer - be it the prospect that has just made a commitment to be a customer or the long standing satisfied customer who has already found the enterprise and product worthy of continued support, loyalty and feedback.
Concept II is fortunate to have this input. It may be that older molds need to be changed out. It may mean that testing procedures need to be upgraded. It may mean that final inspection and cleaning needs to be enhanced. It may mean that shipping materials and packing methods should be reviewed. And, it may mean that when there is a disappointment, that the next machine shipped is reviewed in further detail in order to assure it is the best of the best in order to satisfy those who have more discerning standards for issues such cosmetics etc.
And, I could not disagree more with the notion that the two parties should part ways and admit an impass. Far from it. I believe concept II should go the absolute distance. Because if the enterprise to can determine what it takes to satisfy the most discerning customer - even the customer that places emphasis and value on cosmetics as well as performance...well, the result is clear - a more perfected product.
It may cause a review of the basic materials that components are manufactured from.
It may even mean a solution to the irritating black build-up and periodic clicking that seems to happen periodically - and sometimes in the middle of a new personal best record attempt!!!
Walk away respectfully from disappointment by writing it off as excessive micro-criticism? Hell no...more an invitation to a deeper and more productive relationship from which everyone learns and grows...so, maybe there will be a better machine as a result of this discussion...and if so...good for all of us. Now about the black build-up and annoying clicks?????
Good communities advance value and values through this essential process. Good on all of you for taking the time to further the mission of Concept II.
jgorde,
Your comments are very inspirational.
I am sure C2 goals in meeting customer satisfaction are just as high.
In theory the customer is always right even for the most demanding of customers standards and c2jon stated as much in his post. I feel his post was also very well put.
It is every possible that the customer is expecting the impossible?
If the manufacture starts feeling this way and nothing is going to please the customer, why try any longer. especially when the customer makes accusations about the integrability of the manufacture.
Trying to put out a quality product at a fair price is a juggling act. Trying to fix every cosmetic blemish may put a much higher price on the rower.
To keep the "most demanding" customers happy and overall raising all the prices on the rower and parts would not make me very happy. Remember, I am also a customer and as a customer I do not want to see this happen.
Your comments are very inspirational.
I am sure C2 goals in meeting customer satisfaction are just as high.
In theory the customer is always right even for the most demanding of customers standards and c2jon stated as much in his post. I feel his post was also very well put.
It is every possible that the customer is expecting the impossible?
If the manufacture starts feeling this way and nothing is going to please the customer, why try any longer. especially when the customer makes accusations about the integrability of the manufacture.
Trying to put out a quality product at a fair price is a juggling act. Trying to fix every cosmetic blemish may put a much higher price on the rower.
To keep the "most demanding" customers happy and overall raising all the prices on the rower and parts would not make me very happy. Remember, I am also a customer and as a customer I do not want to see this happen.
I prefer to think nothing is impossible...
Organizations are only limited by that which they deem impossible. Yes, in a reasoned and practical world we accept the notion of limitations and characterize them as "impossible". And yet, the marketplace has proven over and over again that tomorrow's great breakthroughs are almost always birthed in todays impossibilities. Even the issue of value equations - what was thought to be cost prohibitive often finds its solution in ideas that create innovations in ways that actually reduce costs and improve quality...Are there limits...I tend to think not.
It is not so much for the sake of the 'impossible to please' customer that unrelenting attempts to satisfy are undertaken...but rather in the thoughtfulness that is generated in the 'case study' if you will that really advances the organization internally, eh?
I myself am more a paddler than a rower. I look forward to innovations that more mimic my kayak stroke than the skulling motion. I know there is a small hard to find and even harder to communicate with group in Vermont somewhere that seemingly have created a retro for the Concept machine that turns it into what I most want. So be it from within or from skunk-works outside the primary organization I choose to be believe that the possible is really an endless dynamic process of progress and transition.
Who knows...maybe the black spec build-up that sometimes bothers me and the wheel clicking that sometimes throws off my rhythm will be innvoated out of the next iteration of the machine...afterall, anything is possible...even in a relatively unforgiving free market.
I have been a contradiction to the above far too often in my career and when I look back now, there was much more to be gained by continuing the effort to satisfy then there was by not taking the time to figure it out and reach a satisfactory transaction...if nothing else, we are all taught patience and forgiveness in such situations, which in itself is a blessing.
Best regards to all...jerry
It is not so much for the sake of the 'impossible to please' customer that unrelenting attempts to satisfy are undertaken...but rather in the thoughtfulness that is generated in the 'case study' if you will that really advances the organization internally, eh?
I myself am more a paddler than a rower. I look forward to innovations that more mimic my kayak stroke than the skulling motion. I know there is a small hard to find and even harder to communicate with group in Vermont somewhere that seemingly have created a retro for the Concept machine that turns it into what I most want. So be it from within or from skunk-works outside the primary organization I choose to be believe that the possible is really an endless dynamic process of progress and transition.
Who knows...maybe the black spec build-up that sometimes bothers me and the wheel clicking that sometimes throws off my rhythm will be innvoated out of the next iteration of the machine...afterall, anything is possible...even in a relatively unforgiving free market.
I have been a contradiction to the above far too often in my career and when I look back now, there was much more to be gained by continuing the effort to satisfy then there was by not taking the time to figure it out and reach a satisfactory transaction...if nothing else, we are all taught patience and forgiveness in such situations, which in itself is a blessing.
Best regards to all...jerry
i resisted this post since it went up... my .02
this was a simple question.
directly (without any post Deming manufacturing philosophy)
the 1st post was basically asking the question - have c2's become shoddy?
Let's look at the facts...
1. one person that is very unhappy with the quality of one unit. (or was it 2 or 3?)
2. ~ tens of thousands of people that are very happy with ~ tens of thousands of units.
3. tens of thousands of units functioning within spec after being used for billions of strokes ... trillions of meters
Thus
c2's have not become shoddy!
this was a simple question.
directly (without any post Deming manufacturing philosophy)
the 1st post was basically asking the question - have c2's become shoddy?
Let's look at the facts...
1. one person that is very unhappy with the quality of one unit. (or was it 2 or 3?)
2. ~ tens of thousands of people that are very happy with ~ tens of thousands of units.
3. tens of thousands of units functioning within spec after being used for billions of strokes ... trillions of meters
Thus
c2's have not become shoddy!
I too have been lurking, I expect the best when I put out my hard earned cash but nothing I saw in the photos would make me return a model E. I agree, the original poster is being too picky.rwj0j0 wrote:i resisted this post since it went up... my .02
this was a simple question.
directly (without any post Deming manufacturing philosophy)
the 1st post was basically asking the question - have c2's become shoddy?
Let's look at the facts...
1. one person that is very unhappy with the quality of one unit. (or was it 2 or 3?)
2. ~ tens of thousands of people that are very happy with ~ tens of thousands of units.
3. tens of thousands of units functioning within spec after being used for billions of strokes ... trillions of meters
Thus
c2's have not become shoddy!
Just my $0.02.
Fred Dickie
I received my new D model today and it was in pristine condition.
Im about to post my 2nd post though, because the log card doesnt seem to work. But other than that, its a beautiful machine
UPDATE: THE LOG CARD IS FINE.
Someone clue'd me in that the pictures of the cards in the machine are not accurate. You gotta shove it in a lot further, even if it feels like you are breaking something LOL
Im about to post my 2nd post though, because the log card doesnt seem to work. But other than that, its a beautiful machine
UPDATE: THE LOG CARD IS FINE.
Someone clue'd me in that the pictures of the cards in the machine are not accurate. You gotta shove it in a lot further, even if it feels like you are breaking something LOL
Last edited by noobrower on February 1st, 2008, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you guys bought a new car with scratches and blemishes on it would you ask for it to rectified or accept it as it doesn't impact the functionality.
If you pay a lot of money for a product you should expect it to be pristine when it comes out of the box!
A car with a scratched door?
An Ipod with a scratched screen?
A blue Cell with a black blotch on it?
Would you accept these things as they don't impact functionality?
If you pay a lot of money for a product you should expect it to be pristine when it comes out of the box!
A car with a scratched door?
An Ipod with a scratched screen?
A blue Cell with a black blotch on it?
Would you accept these things as they don't impact functionality?
I would expect the scratched door to be fixed but not scratches or dings or dents inside the engine compartment or trunk. The only reason I would expect the scratch to be fixed is that the car may rust out sooner if its not fixed which does affect long term performance.John Foy wrote:If you guys bought a new car with scratches and blemishes on it would you ask for it to rectified or accept it as it doesn't impact the functionality.
If you pay a lot of money for a product you should expect it to be pristine when it comes out of the box!
A car with a scratched door?
An Ipod with a scratched screen?
A blue Cell with a black blotch on it?
Would you accept these things as they don't impact functionality?
I wouldn't take the ipod back. I have cell phones with scratched screens.
Don't know what a blue cell is.
My son once borrowed my 2 year old Mercury Mountaineer SUV to move home from college. A can of black spraypaint was triggered in the back seat. Black paint all over the rear of the front seats and the back seat and rugs. His girlfriend was sure they were dead meat, and shocked when I did not even get mad. What's the point? It was an accident, they didn't mean to paint my leather seats and rugs. I continued to drive the car until it died. I never had the paint removed.
I expect to get my moneys worth when I buy things, but the world is not perfect, shit happens. and the defects I saw in the pictures of the erg just would not have been worth the time or expense to have fixed. I know, C2 was paying the expenses. The expense I'm talking about is the interruption of my training schedule.
In my humble opinion, some people are just too picky.
fred Dickie
satisfied customer Model E
I got a Model E a year and a half ago and all has been great with this unit. Customer Service has been better with C2 than with any other company I have dealt with. I have been impressed with build quality, support and responsiveness to questions.
I certainly hope your issues get resolved to your satisfaction and believe C2 will do whatever it takes to make things right, based on my experience. Good luck with your erg and your workouts!
I certainly hope your issues get resolved to your satisfaction and believe C2 will do whatever it takes to make things right, based on my experience. Good luck with your erg and your workouts!
I think you are missing the point. The beauty and value of a C2 is not in it's looks and finish, it's in it's functional engineering and reliability.John Foy wrote:If you guys bought a new car with scratches and blemishes on it would you ask for it to rectified or accept it as it doesn't impact the functionality.
If you pay a lot of money for a product you should expect it to be pristine when it comes out of the box!
A car with a scratched door?
An Ipod with a scratched screen?
A blue Cell with a black blotch on it?
Would you accept these things as they don't impact functionality?
Cars and ipods on the other hand are specifically designed to be nice to look at, and finished in glossy finishes that make them shine and nice to look at. People spend hours waxing and cleaning them to a mirror finish.
C2: Function over finish.
Cars etc: Finish over function.
On the other hand, if you take another common functional item like a lawnmower that has little beauty attached to it in most people's eyes, a little scratch or daggy weld here or there is not ideal, but also not going to attract howls of complaints from most users as long as the minor faults do not impact the machine's functionality.
Mike.
I like the comparison between the rower and a car. When we were looking for a used model C last summer, Mrs. Wu, who hadn't have much exposure to C2 machines and their quality, asked me if several million meters on a rower is going to affect its use. I said, unless the rower was subject to the most extreme of abuses, that kind of mileage is just like a test drive of a new car, the rower's probably hadn't been fully broken in yet. We ended up getting a new model D because C2 rowers hold their value so well and a used model C wouldn't save us much money considering the shipping, and we prefer the quietness of the D anyway.
Our model D arrived in good condition. Some plastic moldings were slightly misaligned on the fan cage where the two halves meet. That was easily fixed with a screwdriver in 2 minutes. It had the reenforcement kit at the foot rest installed. I'll examine under there for possible cracks from time to time. But I'm pretty confident that the machine will last us a long time. If something goes wrong down the road, based on the experiences of others, I'm sure Concept2 will do what they can to help us.
Half a year into our ownership of the model D, I couldn't care less about its cosmetics. As long as the rail and the rollers are clean, and the chains are not making weird noises, the rower will do just fine for my work out. But that's me. If the OP is really concerned about the imperfections of their rowers, I understand, and please don't give up. I'm sure Concept2 is don't what they can to help you. Give them one more chance. There are cars that got damaged in the transport and repaired and sold as new (I think Concept2 is probably more honest and supportive of their product than most if not all car manufactures and dealers). There are cars that die on the dealer's lot. It happens. But I think counting on a C2 rower for 20 years of low-cost service is a much better bet than counting on a new car to last 200,000 miles without major repairs. Hope everything works out for you.
Our model D arrived in good condition. Some plastic moldings were slightly misaligned on the fan cage where the two halves meet. That was easily fixed with a screwdriver in 2 minutes. It had the reenforcement kit at the foot rest installed. I'll examine under there for possible cracks from time to time. But I'm pretty confident that the machine will last us a long time. If something goes wrong down the road, based on the experiences of others, I'm sure Concept2 will do what they can to help us.
Half a year into our ownership of the model D, I couldn't care less about its cosmetics. As long as the rail and the rollers are clean, and the chains are not making weird noises, the rower will do just fine for my work out. But that's me. If the OP is really concerned about the imperfections of their rowers, I understand, and please don't give up. I'm sure Concept2 is don't what they can to help you. Give them one more chance. There are cars that got damaged in the transport and repaired and sold as new (I think Concept2 is probably more honest and supportive of their product than most if not all car manufactures and dealers). There are cars that die on the dealer's lot. It happens. But I think counting on a C2 rower for 20 years of low-cost service is a much better bet than counting on a new car to last 200,000 miles without major repairs. Hope everything works out for you.
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Rocket Roy
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