Newbie advice 32 Male 203lbs 5ft11

[Dimeech]

Hey guys, first time posting in the forums. But I have been reading much since I started rowing almost 7 months ago. Might sound too excessive but I love rowing. It’s the one exercise I can relax mentally and still get a good workout and breathe better after. After reading the forms and following RowAlong videos, I realized form is a priority.

I’ve worked my way up to trying to do 10K steady state. BUT! From what I’ve been reading and seeing on average stats, my pace is too low for my height and weight. I know you guys don’t see my form, but can my form really affect my pace?

Recent 10K stats:
18 SPM
AVG PACE: 2.22
AVG power: 121 watts
Drag factor 104

I know drag factor is low but I am doing this to slowly ease into proper rowing form. I am risk averse and would love to continue rowing for a long time.

My goals are to going to longer distances and to maximize proper form and efficiency in rowing that will not get me into injury trouble. At the end of the day pace doesn’t matter too much for me because I just like to row. I’m just trying to see if I am just really weak or is my pace like this due to improper form (again I know you all haven’t seen my form).

Any advice? Anyone else in the same boat as me?

[iain]

Firstly 104DF is not exceptionally low, I have heard it said that Rob Waddell used a DF of 90 when setting the world 2k record.

In addition, there are many people much slower than you. In a couple of years rowing 5 days a week in a gym, I estimate that less than 10% of the people rowing next to me were rowing this fast and few did more than 5mins! Congratulations on completing your first 10k. THe majority of people couldn't complete this at anything like the pace that you managed!

This forum is full of exceptionally fit people and you cannot take their performances as "normal". I have rowed over 25,000,000M, am the same height (if a lightweight) and do most of my rowing at about that pace. You are rowing at a relatively low rating (18 strokes per min) that will explain much of the difference. This is fine for training, but for an all out time trial most people on here would use 24-28 SpM. One stat that may be useful if the "Work per Stroke". This is Watts/strokes. so 122/18 = 6.8WMin (or in a more recognisable unit, 407J per stroke. We see many new rowers initially rowing at less than 5WMin.

That said, when fit and strong most heavyweights of your age can manage to maintain a stronger stroke than this. Form could definitely make the difference and a significant proportion of the force created can not be transferred to the handle if you are taking the catch with bent arms or with the chain not in line with your arms (as the initial force will go on rectifying this rather than accelerating the flywheel - the only thing measured by the PM. SImilar if the initial leg drive is used to pull you over (taking catch with rounded back to "shoot the slide" where the seat is driven back more than the chain is pulled) amongst others.

However I suspect that the difference is more likely to a greater degree be because of the difference in the force profile of rowing to many other sports. typically a drive (the only part that contributes to the PM performance)is 0.6-0.7S, so in a minute you are likely to be "doing useful work" for 10-13S per minute (multiplying by the 18 strokes). Running, canoeing, swimming and particularly cycling would have the force applied for a much higher proportion of the time. As a result when rowing to generate high outputs requires us to drive with much higher forces than used in these other sports. So the action is one of a high force action followed by a slow recovery so that we can complete another drive. The drive has often been described as like a horizontal deadlift all be it repeated over 850 times. So over time you may well be able to build up the amount of work per stroke by driving faster. Alternatively when fitter, you should be able to maintain a higher rating without significantly reducing the work per stroke. That work per stroke at 24SpM would yield 163W which is 2:09 pace.

Well done on a great start.

[jamesg]

can my form really affect my pace?

If by "form" you mean technique, certainly. Any value of Pace implies a certain amount of Power. And Power on the erg is the product of three numbers: average handle force; length of stroke; and rating (strokes per minute).

The usual procedure is to learn to pull a full length stroke, at low ratings, on low drag. Then use that stroke at increasing force, to get fit. If then we want to race, we use it at increasing ratings too.

At height 5'11 (1.8m) you have a fit weight of around 23*1.8² = 75kg; so are already working at 122/75 = 1.6Wkg. Not bad at all. 2W/kg would be better.

At rating 18, 122W/18 = 6.8 W-min per stroke; can be improved.

[Dave Neve]

Hello

Very hard to comment on someone's form when we can't see you and you don't have a video.

But don't give up. Rome was not built in a day.

[Dangerscouse]

Welcome to the forum. I've got a few queries.

- How are you setting your steady state pace? It can be a simple mistake that you end up going a bit slower than you could do, as you judge it as being too hard. Rowing is hard, so it's a question of degrees, and I wonder if your comment about being risk averse is also holding you back.

- Have you tried rowing at higher than r18? You might be better suited to r22-r24.

- Are you just doing 10k at a similar pace every time? To quote Einstein, "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got". You need to push the effort fairly regularly to make more progress on the slower sessions.

- Form definitely can affect pace. You could easily be leaking power through poor transference of power, gripping the handle too hard or not being relaxed enough, to name just three possible issues.

[MPx]

I’ve worked my way up to trying to do 10K steady state. BUT! From what I’ve been reading and seeing on average stats, my pace is too low for my height and weight. I know you guys don’t see my form, but can my form really affect my pace?

Recent 10K stats:
18 SPM
AVG PACE: 2.22
AVG power: 121 watts
Drag factor 104

There may be some confusion in terminology and comparisons going on here. "worked [your] way up to 10k Steady State" is a very good effort - doing 10k continuous is a long way for people like me (albeit just a warm up for several people on here). But is it really "Steady State" which is a term for a manageable training pace that you adopt on the less hard sessions or is it in fact the best you can do - effectively a Time Trial? If 2:22 is steady state pace, you might expect to be able to do a 10k TT @ say 2:15 or better. There's roughly a 9 or 10s pace difference between my 10k SS and TT. If you're comparing to the rankings, they will (nearly) all be the season best Time Trial times - no SS times get ranked.

On your stats:
18spm is low/normal for steady state - I'm typically r20 but others use 18-24. For a TT 10k I'd be closer to r27.
2:22 seems a fair pace for Steady State - your HR may well drift up as its such a long session but if you're basically staying below your nominal UT1 HR cap then it counts as steady state. If you don't monitor Heart Rate then RPE needs to be about a 7 or less.
DF 104 is indeed low - and I wonder if you've chosen it due to misunderstanding the concept of Drag? If you're concerned about it being "resistence" that you want to minimise to save your back or similar then that's not really what its about. You could put DF up to 220 and as long as you did a slow enough stroke it would actually feel the same resistence as a normal (very fast!) stroke at 104. There's nothing at all wrong with DF 104 if you've naturally got a very fast leg drive. If you haven't, then you may well find it easier (yes really!) to generate the same pace at a higher DF. Most people, most of the time, find a sweet spot for themselves in the 110-130 range - but equally there's very many outliers like me that prefer it even higher, or who prefer lower like you use.

As for advice...I always advocate doing a mix of sessions rather than the same thing every time. You learn a lot more about yourself (and the erg) more quickly, by mixing it up a bit. But if your goal is just to get reasonably fit then you'll do that just by sticking with it - so do whatever you find most enjoyable.

[estragon]

...To quote Einstein, "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got"...

Just FYI, there is no record of Einstein saying that or anything similar. Nor did he originate the thing about madness being to do the same thing repeatedly while expecting a different result. Both are widely but wrongly ascribed to Einstein. Surprisingly, there is no reliable source of the first quote older than the 1980s, so it's nothing to do with Mark Twain either, despite popular opinion!

[Dangerscouse]

...To quote Einstein, "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got"...

Just FYI, there is no record of Einstein saying that or anything similar. Nor did he originate the thing about madness being to do the same thing repeatedly while expecting a different result. Both are widely but wrongly ascribed to Einstein. Surprisingly, there is no reliable source of the first quote older than the 1980s, so it's nothing to do with Mark Twain either, despite popular opinion!

That is interesting...in that case, I'll take credit for it

[PleaseLockIn]

Hey guys, first time posting in the forums. But I have been reading much since I started rowing almost 7 months ago. Might sound too excessive but I love rowing. It’s the one exercise I can relax mentally and still get a good workout and breathe better after. After reading the forms and following RowAlong videos, I realized form is a priority.

I’ve worked my way up to trying to do 10K steady state. BUT! From what I’ve been reading and seeing on average stats, my pace is too low for my height and weight. I know you guys don’t see my form, but can my form really affect my pace?

Recent 10K stats:
18 SPM
AVG PACE: 2.22
AVG power: 121 watts
Drag factor 104

I know drag factor is low but I am doing this to slowly ease into proper rowing form. I am risk averse and would love to continue rowing for a long time.

My goals are to going to longer distances and to maximize proper form and efficiency in rowing that will not get me into injury trouble. At the end of the day pace doesn’t matter too much for me because I just like to row. I’m just trying to see if I am just really weak or is my pace like this due to improper form (again I know you all haven’t seen my form).

Any advice? Anyone else in the same boat as me?

What is your HR when doing these steady states? UT2 is 55-70% HRR, below 2 mmol, RPE 2-3, talk easily for multiple sentences. UT1 is 2-4 mmol, RPE 4-5, 70-80% HRR, talk multiple sentence but not too comfortable.

10K is a decent SS session though UT2 sessions often go longer - think 60-120 minutes, especially at higher levels. R18 is okay for steady states - r18-20 usual for ut2, r20-22 usual for ut1.

I do SS at 90 something SS so 104 ain’t too low though relatively so.

Maximise the form, be smooth, pronate scapula to get 1” length (get used to this with strength training).

Follow 80/20 polarized training, lift 2x a week at least for meaningful gains. 1x hard erg is enough in my experience. Spend a season on base training (BPP, other plans) then some time on more intervals to get your 2k/5k. Fitness is tough - I am only at sub 2 r20 for 8*500m 2R. Be consistent, eat more protein, maybe shed some pounds.

Sub 7 2k is a decent benchmark to go towards - or 1:58-1:59 30r20 if you prefer longer stuff. Good luck!

[p_b82]

I know drag factor is low but I am doing this to slowly ease into proper rowing form. I am risk averse and would love to continue rowing for a long time.

Any advice? Anyone else in the same boat as me?

Drag factor is subjective, and low for one person is high for another - find what's right for you, and go with it, and don't get too hung up about it.

If steady state you mean = getting to the end, having a bit of sweat on but not gasping like a fish out of water, then that pace is great - the more exercise you do, the more rowing specifically, the faster that pace will become. 10k's a decent distance either try to get faster or keep adding time. Whichever you enjoy and keeps you coming back!

As to whether your pace is low due to form - it's probably just you're not pushing hard enough with the legs; rating quicker will gain you pace if you keep the same force applied during the leg drive at a higher rate too.
Most folks tend to find their rating sweet spot - the balance of strength vs aerobic fitness - is around 20-24 so play around with the ratings, you might find a bit faster is more comfortable - you might not.

One comment, If you do all your rowing a specific rate, you will train yourself to become very good at just that rate, so it is worth putting some variation in from time to time.

While not being in quite the same boat, I also started off very slowly in my first year - like you focused on increasing volume, and worked my way up to a HM in the first year. I had lower back issues and so was also risk adverse to generating higher forces.
Once I ticked the HM off I started to work on going a bit quicker, and being a bit more efficient in my stroke (generate more power at lower ratings) - but that is likely to come naturally if you keep at the erg anyway.

<snip>
Maximise the form, be smooth, pronate scapula to get 1” length

Follow 80/20 polarized training, lift 2x a week at least for meaningful gains. 1x hard erg is enough in my experience. Spend a season on base training (BPP, other plans) then some time on more intervals to get your 2k/5k. Fitness is tough - I am only at sub 2 r20 for 8*500m 2R. Be consistent, eat more protein, maybe shed some pounds.

Sub 7 2k is a decent benchmark to go towards - or 1:58-1:59 30r20 if you prefer longer stuff. Good luck!

May I suggest that you stop telling people to do things that you specifically are doing as gospel - it might be just how you write, but:

1. not every-one has issues with their shoulders being hunched and needs to alter their positioning - It sounds like your coach has pulled you up on a technique flaw, and that's specific to you. (PS I'd rather have my shoulders in a stronger position and generate larger forces than create length and risk being in a weaker position that will induce strain and potential injury)
2. not every-one has issues with over-training and so polarised training may not be the best thing for them - there are many schools of thought out there, with multiple different methods having results depending on a particular person and their goals.
3. not every-one has a dietary deficit in a particular food group, and so telling people they should eat more of X is imo not helpful in the slightest without there being a load more info supplied by the individual
4. Not for the first time, you've told a relative new rower to set their target on an arbitrary and very tough benchmark. The OP has stated they like doing slower stuff and wants to add distance/volume that way so imo that sort of comment is really unhelpful

What is right for you, is not what is right for every-one - and with no disrespect meant, you're young and quite inexperienced on the rowing side too.