Split Handles

[nates]

I know this will perturb some folks who say "buts its not like a boat", but I decided to try split handles because my wrists were popping as the angle changes. It wasn't painful but at 54 I was thinking this can't be good long term if I'm going to be doing an hour of this a day. I'm not rowing for boat practice, I'm rowing for fitness and this is literally the only cardio I've ever been able to 1) stick at 2) not be hampered by Exercise Induced Asthma. Pick a heart rate and I can just park it there.

Anyway, i went to google and said nope $120 is too steep. So I found some lat bar handles for $20 and a D-ring shackle for another $8 (for like 6 of them).

What i didn't expect was the increase in stroke length. I'm 5'10 and I'm getting almost the entire stroke length on the force curve. It's also working the biceps and shoulders a bit differently. Also, with the molded grips, there is really no sliding and I don't need my gloves.

[Slidewinder]

I know this will perturb some folks who say "but its not like a boat", but I decided to try split handles because my wrists were popping as the angle changes.

Actually, it is the C2 handle that is "not like a boat". During an otw sweep stroke the oar grip moves through one arc, and during an otw sculling stroke the oar grips move through two arcs. The grips of the C2 handle do neither. Also, during an otw sculling stroke, the angular progression of the oar grips closely matches the natural angular progression of the rower's forearms as the stroke progresses, so there is no wrist "popping". Less than two weeks after purchasing my Model D fifteen years ago I realized that the stock C2 handle is a bio-mechanical abomination, so I designed and built an articulated handle to solve the problem. It is beyond my understanding why users have tolerated such a stone-age implement, the rigid, single-piece C2 handle, for all these years.

[Tsnor]

I found some lat bar handles for $20 and a D-ring shackle for another $8 (for like 6 of them).

photo or link to the handles plz.

Assume you unbolted the existing handle and put the D ring through the chain....

[nates]

My attached photos didn't work, but I wasn't sure if linking would be allowed either - these aren't "affiiliate links", just what I bought.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNQJ1G7X
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GGYNCT5

My bad - the handles were $25. I like the molded grips a lot more than the typical gym padded bar. I thought I was going to have to file off a bit where it touches the wrist pad but in practice I don't touch it while rowing.

[nates]

'm rather curious about the biomechanical ramifications of my current setup - I don't think a spreader bar would have much effect at the end of the stroke, just the beginning, but the pull from the center is hardly unnatural, and this is pretty simple.

I think you can get a d-shackle with a screwdriver end that doesn't protrude. If it bugs me or starts damaging the holder I might just grind off the driver tab and cut a slot for a screwdriver

[Slidewinder]

'm rather curious about the biomechanical ramifications of my current setup - I don't think a spreader bar would have much effect at the end of the stroke, just the beginning, but the pull from the center is hardly unnatural, and this is pretty simple.

I like your set-up. It improves upon what forum member johnlvs2run put together years ago. One problem: the structure results in the handgrips being considerably rearward of the position of the C2 stock handle. For those with a long reach at the catch the d-shackle will be passing beyond the uprights holding the PM. This can be fixed. I my case I removed the two uprights. This opens up a corridor down the left side of the flywheel housing. The PM was then relocated to the C2 handle clip location and fastened there with a simple aluminium bracket.

In your first post you state, "I'm not rowing for boat practice, I'm rowing for fitness..." I would wager this is true for most users. So why have so many been opposed to rowing ergometer handles that enable handle rotation? Forty years of indoctrination, with the hands stuck in one position, is the only possible explanation. In the 'StrengthErg' section I recently wrote that the StrengthErg "could be greatly improved if the handles were articulated, enabling rotation of the hands. Handle articulation would offer improved bio-mechanics, would engage various muscle groups, and would add variety and interest to the workout program." No one objected to what I wrote. One poster replied, "This is a good suggestion...seeing the different types of handle attachments for the multi machines you see in gyms, and on pull up bars to be used at home, clearly shows there are benefits." So, if articulated handles would be an obvious improvement to the StrengthErg, why is it not obvious that it would also be an improvement to the rowing ergometer?

[nates]

Perhaps its a model C difference but I'm not sure what you're referring to and didn't notice any problems the shackle might hit

I take back what i said about the spreader bar, it would change the motion at the end of the stroke, not so much the beginning, resulting in more straight back and less fly motion. You actually have a choice of which way you want to pull at the end of the steoke, you can go elbows back or elbows out

[jamesg]

my wrists were popping as the angle changes.

Why change angles, if that's the result? On erg, keep your wrists relaxed, flat and straight, you don't need carpal tunnel problems.

Flexed and bent wrists require use of muscle, which is bad technique anyway, since it's not effort that goes into the handle, serving only to destroy your tendons.

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[nates]

Your wrist must change angles if you hold a straight bar and pull it to your torso

[Sakly]

Your wrist must change angles if you hold a straight bar and pull it to your torso

Hm, no, not really. Forearms stay in line with the chain, so wrists stay flat and relaxed.
If you pull the handle to your chest or even higher, than it might need a bend wrist or very spread elbows to the side. Both not optimal movement pattern for rowing.

[Tsnor]

Your wrist must change angles if you hold a straight bar and pull it to your torso

Hm, no, not really. Forearms stay in line with the chain, so wrists stay flat and relaxed.
If you pull the handle to your chest or even higher, than it might need a bend wrist or very spread elbows to the side. Both not optimal movement pattern for rowing.

Wrist changes angle any time elbows get further apart.

Most coaches put elbows out a bit from your side at the finish (slightly more down than up) and pull hands to chest (bottom of your sternum). If you row that way then the wrist angle changes as elbows get further apart. <Handle doesn't change. Hands are parallel to handle. Wrist angle, the angle between the hands and the arms, changes as elbow get further apart and make a longer base for the triangle.> At the limit <full chicken wings - a very weak position, don't do this> elbows are almost in line with handle so wrists have a large angle change.

If you are rowing where forearms stay in line with the chain and elbows are tight to your body at the finish <t-rex style> then you'll see less wrist angle movement. You'll also see less power because elbows tight to body is not a strong position for arms/shoulders. Most coaches don't want to see elbows tight on the body. (OTW you will see a slightly higher elbow at the finish to help with the release, especially outside hand sweeps rowing. That's not needed in erging. Erging belows slightly lower than 1/2 way like this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ42Ga-vi5I )

[Tsnor]

my wrists were popping as the angle changes.

Flexed and bent wrists require use of muscle, which is bad technique anyway, since it's not effort that goes into the handle, serving only to destroy your tendons.
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

agree completely - wrists should stay flat. If OP is *not* keeping wrist flat they need to fix that whatever handle they use. Wrist should be flat like you'd use when you hang from a bar everywhere in the stroke.

The wrist ANGLE does change though even when the wrist stays flat. If you look at the video you linked and stop it at 36 seconds in https://youtu.be/4zWu1yuJ0_g?si=Os6JiKQk9DquA4xW&t=35 you'll see the rower correctly has elbows out from the body. Maybe even a bit more than usual. This changes the wrist angle even as wrists stay flat. Fingers stay parallel to handle. Forearm angle changes compared to handle as handle approaches body. The change shows up in the wrist angle.

Assuming OP is talking about the wrist angle change from elbow out then they are correct, it happens. Only way to prevent it is variable distance between the hands over the stroke. Their cable handles gives them that variable distance.

[Sakly]

Your wrist must change angles if you hold a straight bar and pull it to your torso

Hm, no, not really. Forearms stay in line with the chain, so wrists stay flat and relaxed.
If you pull the handle to your chest or even higher, than it might need a bend wrist or very spread elbows to the side. Both not optimal movement pattern for rowing.

Wrist changes angle any time elbows get further apart.

Most coaches put elbows out a bit from your side at the finish (slightly more down than up) and pull hands to chest (bottom of your sternum). If you row that way then the wrist angle changes as elbows get further apart. <Handle doesn't change. Hands are parallel to handle. Wrist angle, the angle between the hands and the arms, changes as elbow get further apart and make a longer base for the triangle.> At the limit <full chicken wings - a very weak position, don't do this> elbows are almost in line with handle so wrists have a large angle change.

If you are rowing where forearms stay in line with the chain and elbows are tight to your body at the finish <t-rex style> then you'll see less wrist angle movement. You'll also see less power because elbows tight to body is not a strong position for arms/shoulders. Most coaches don't want to see elbows tight on the body. (OTW you will see a slightly higher elbow at the finish to help with the release, especially outside hand sweeps rowing. That's not needed in erging. Erging belows slightly lower than 1/2 way like this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ42Ga-vi5I )

Ok, I think we are talking about different angles. Your next post shows your explanation about the angle of the wrist in relation to the handle - there I agree fully.
I was writing about bending the wrists during the stroke. I think I got the post wrong, thus commented with wrong context.

[nates]

Elbows down does keep the wrist straighter but doesn't keep my wrists from popping. Split handles it completely goes away and there is no choice but for the only forces on the wrist to be a straight pull

[Sakly]

Elbows down does keep the wrist straighter but doesn't keep my wrists from popping. Split handles it completely goes away and there is no choice but for the only forces on the wrist to be a straight pull

Split handles are the best, when it comes to force transmission, as all joints can move/act freely as individual needs/mobility allows. Same happens when you get from fixed bars to rings for pullups as example. It's easier on all joints.