Drag Factor on Model A

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JaapvanE
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by JaapvanE » October 9th, 2022, 2:52 pm

walterpump wrote:
October 7th, 2022, 2:49 pm
I would love to be able to compare my performance with everyone else.
Come to think of it, the dragfactor is a pretty bad comparison across devices as the flywheel construction highly influences the number. For a normal Concept 2 Model C, D, E and RowErg, the flywheel inertia is around 0.1001 and the drag can vary between a df 70 and 230.

For Open Rowing Monitor, we catalog known rowers and determine the drag and inertia based on a comparison with the Concept2 machines (which can be found in most gyms). The engine itself is validated against the PM5, so we obtain quite a decent perspective on the field. For a selfbuild rower (construction quite similar to the Model A), the flywheel inertia is 1.5 and the dragfactor is around 16000 (see this discussion). Looking at water rowers, you see a similar effect: the Sportstech WRX700 has a inertia of 0.72, and a dragFactor of 32000. As you can see, these numbers are totally different than the normal 70 to 230 we normally encounter.

Key is that the flywheel construction (more specifically, the inertia) and the typical accompanying rotation speed can vary across devices, forcing these numbers to be different to make sure that a similar athlete effort leads to similar results on the monitor. As the model A has a hugely different flywheel construction than the rest of the Concept2 family, it will result in hugely dfferent dragfactor which can't be related to the numbers typically found on a Concept2 machine.

Nomath
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by Nomath » October 9th, 2022, 5:51 pm

walterpump wrote:
October 7th, 2022, 2:49 pm
Hi Gang: Is there a way to calculate Drag Factor for a Model A depending on which gear is being used. I would love to be able to compare my performance with everyone else. I am loving my Model A! It has the original PM1 Monitor which works great.
Cheers. Jim
Why do you think that the drag factor depends on the gear used?
If I look at the picture of the machine, never seen a real Model A myself, my guess is that gear does not affect the drag factor. Drag is the aerodynamic resistance of the spinning wheel. When there is no force applied to the wheel, the spinning wheel starts to slow down. The rotation period drops linearly with time and proportional to the drag factor. It doesn't matter whether you accelerated the wheel in a high gear or in a low gear. Neither does it matter for the drag factor whether you accerelated the wheel to a high speed or to a low speed.
Image
JaapvanE wrote: Please note that you shouldn't overestimate the ultimate effect of the drag factor onto pace. When you look at the formula for linear velocity, it is.......
I did not understand your argument and my guess is that it is only considering a small part of the effect of a change in drag factor. Just an experimental observation: you are rowing in a steady state effort and suddenly somebody changes the drag factor from 125 to 115. You will feel instantly that there is less resistance and for the same effort your drive will obtain a higher average handle speed. Keeping the recovery period constant, the speed of the flywheel has decreased proportionally less, so the catch slip is longer and you pick up the flywheel at a higher initial handle speed. Both effects combine. My guess is that pace depends significantly on the drag factor.

Experimental studies support this gut feeling (figure below constructed by me from data reported in a study by D. Kane in Int J of Sports Medicine, 2012)
Image

JaapvanE
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by JaapvanE » October 9th, 2022, 6:19 pm

Nomath wrote:
October 9th, 2022, 5:51 pm
I did not understand your argument and my guess is that it is only considering a small part of the effect of a change in drag factor. Just an experimental observation: you are rowing in a steady state effort and suddenly somebody changes the drag factor from 125 to 115. You will feel instantly that there is less resistance and for the same effort your drive will obtain a higher average handle speed. Keeping the recovery period constant, the speed of the flywheel has decreased proportionally less, so the catch slip is longer and you pick up the flywheel at a higher initial handle speed. Both effects combine. My guess is that pace depends significantly on the drag factor.
My point is that limited deviations from the actual dragfactor aren't critical to the calculated speed or distance, so a static dragfactor could work extremely well for a simple machine. As the Model A has very few moving parts, and no cage, the dragfactor shouldn't vary too much during its life. For OpenRowingMonitor, we see that most known rowers without damper in fact use a static dragfactor, despite ORM being able to provide extremely stable dragfactors for such machine: it removes a potential source of noise in the metrics, and thus allows for a more responsive setup.

In testing ORM and the PM5, we looked at the variance in the drag factor calculation for both. The PM5 varies two-three points up and two-three points down at df 120 during a session on a new RowErg. I consider this noise, but acceptable as it doesn't influence the speed and distance calculations significantly. So using a static dragfactor would simplify the setup for a model A drastically, without hurting the metrics significantly.

jamesg
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by jamesg » October 10th, 2022, 5:00 am

I would love to be able to compare my performance with everyone else.
You can. Drag is irrelevant, unless you set it so high that it destroys your technique.

Set drag low so that a full length pull at your force level takes 0.7s or less. This leaves you plenty of rest time at rate 20 so that you can pull hardish and do some work.

Just use whatever your monitor tells you in terms of distance and time, if not Watts: W = 2.8 V³, V in m/s under the C2 standard for Pace (m:ss per 500m).
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.

JaapvanE
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by JaapvanE » October 10th, 2022, 6:00 am

jamesg wrote:
October 10th, 2022, 5:00 am
Set drag low so that a full length pull at your force level takes 0.7s or less.
On a Model A, you can't change the drag?

walterpump
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by walterpump » October 10th, 2022, 9:00 am

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion regarding Drag Factor and comparing performance.
If I were to summarize, in my own mind, I now believe that one can compare their performance with others disregarding Drag Factor, Wherein each person sets the damper to a position that feels best for them.
This is good to know
And as a side note, although my Model A does not have a variable damper (and indeed no cage) it does have six gears; so I can set the degree of difficulty pulling similar to a cyclist setting the gear ratio on their bike. If two cyclists race each other, one in a high gear and the other in a low gear, and they reach the finish line at the same time, then they have expended the same amount of energy, although one has pedalled faster than the other in getting there.
Now to get on that machine and ROW!!!

walterpump
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by walterpump » October 16th, 2022, 6:40 pm

JaapvanE wrote:
October 7th, 2022, 3:54 pm
I don't know if a PM5 can be retrofitted. You could attach a Raspberry Pi (even a Zero is known to work) to it, and install Open Rowing Monitor on it. That can calculate it based on some assumed values for flywheel inertia, which you can estimate based on the resulting speed. A challenge is the electrical connection, although it probably is a simple reed switch.

Alternative is to measure the flywheel decay by hand and calculate it from there (see https://github.com/JaapvanEkris/openrow ... e-flywheel).
Hi again JaapvanE: I want to try to calculate the drag factor for my Model A using the length of time deceleration takes, but the formula in the link you sent me is too complicated for me. Any help you can provide??? My hope is to be able to time the deceleration then use some calc to come up with the Drag Factor.
Thanks, and happy rowing.
Jim

walterpump
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by walterpump » October 16th, 2022, 6:45 pm

Nomath wrote:
October 9th, 2022, 5:51 pm
walterpump wrote:
October 7th, 2022, 2:49 pm
Hi Gang: Is there a way to calculate Drag Factor for a Model A depending on which gear is being used. I would love to be able to compare my performance with everyone else. I am loving my Model A! It has the original PM1 Monitor which works great.
Cheers. Jim
Why do you think that the drag factor depends on the gear used?
If I look at the picture of the machine, never seen a real Model A myself, my guess is that gear does not affect the drag factor. Drag is the aerodynamic resistance of the spinning wheel. When there is no force applied to the wheel, the spinning wheel starts to slow down. The rotation period drops linearly with time and proportional to the drag factor. It doesn't matter whether you accelerated the wheel in a high gear or in a low gear. Neither does it matter for the drag factor whether you accerelated the wheel to a high speed or to a low speed.
Image
JaapvanE wrote: Please note that you shouldn't overestimate the ultimate effect of the drag factor onto pace. When you look at the formula for linear velocity, it is.......
I did not understand your argument and my guess is that it is only considering a small part of the effect of a change in drag factor. Just an experimental observation: you are rowing in a steady state effort and suddenly somebody changes the drag factor from 125 to 115. You will feel instantly that there is less resistance and for the same effort your drive will obtain a higher average handle speed. Keeping the recovery period constant, the speed of the flywheel has decreased proportionally less, so the catch slip is longer and you pick up the flywheel at a higher initial handle speed. Both effects combine. My guess is that pace depends significantly on the drag factor.

Experimental studies support this gut feeling (figure below constructed by me from data reported in a study by D. Kane in Int J of Sports Medicine, 2012)
Image
Hi Nomath: Do you know of any relatively simple math formula for calculating Drag Factor based on the deceleration of the flywheel? I would like to try to calculate the drag factor for my Model A, just so I know what it is. Thanks for any info you can provide, and happy rowing. Jim

JaapvanE
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by JaapvanE » October 16th, 2022, 7:08 pm

walterpump wrote:
October 16th, 2022, 6:40 pm
Hi again JaapvanE: I want to try to calculate the drag factor for my Model A using the length of time deceleration takes, but the formula in the link you sent me is too complicated for me. Any help you can provide??? My hope is to be able to time the deceleration then use some calc to come up with the Drag Factor.
Thanks, and happy rowing.
Jim
The key is to measure the time between impulses during the recovery. So somehow, you have to measure that and plot these times against the sum of these times. Are you capable of measuring the time between pulses of the flywheel?

And again, please note that the number you will get is completely meaningless unless compared to nearly identical rowers (i.e. the model A). So knowing your dragfactor won't help you compare with other Concept2's or set them to your liking.

walterpump
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by walterpump » October 17th, 2022, 11:00 am

I think I should just stop obsessing about DF, JaapvanE; since as you say it is really meaningless.
Thanks and happy rowing. Jim

Nomath
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by Nomath » October 18th, 2022, 9:20 am

walterpump wrote:
October 16th, 2022, 6:45 pm
Hi Nomath: Do you know of any relatively simple math formula for calculating Drag Factor based on the deceleration of the flywheel? I would like to try to calculate the drag factor for my Model A, just so I know what it is. Thanks for any info you can provide, and happy rowing. Jim
Here is a method to measure the Drag Factor experimentally. I have never come across a Model A, so I don’t know if this method is feasible. Let's see.

Because the deceleration also depends on the moment of inertia of the wheel, you need to determine the moment of inertia as well.
What you need is a stopwatch, a 0-1 kg scale, a ruler, two bicycle chains and a chain tool. The stopwatch should be capable of recording and storing split times. The stopwatch in an Apple iPhone is fine.

The first practical requirement is that you can give the wheel a good spin by hand. The second requirement is that the wheel keeps spinning for at least 10 turns before it halts

The theory behind the measurement is that the spinning wheel is slowed down by air drag. When there is no driving force on the wheel, i.e. while spinning freely, the rotation period increases linearly with time. In a mathematical expression :
dTr/dt = 2π * DF/J
Tr is the duration of a full turn [sec].
t is time [sec]
DF is damping factor [kg m²]
J is the moment of inertia of the wheel [kg m²]

Attach a bright sticker to the rim of the wheel. Give the wheel a good spin by hand. Record the rotation periods by pressing the stopwatch when the sticker passes the reference point, e.g. the fork that holds the wheel. Record six consecutive rotations.
You can now make a graph of the rotation period against the time elapsed.
The slope of the best-fit line through the points, S1, is the value of the ratio 2π * DF/J

To determine DF, we also need to determine the moment of inertia J. There are experimental methods to measure the moment of inertia of a wheel directly, such as a tri-filar pendulum, but they are difficult to implement. The trick that I will explain below is much easier.

The circumference of the Model A wheel is probably roughly 2 meter, which is longer than one bicycle chain. So we connect the two chains with a common chain link (e.g. SRAM, Shimano, KMC) and then reduce the length of the combined chains to the circumference of the rim bed. The two chain ends should not overlap! Measure the weight of the chain on the scale, M. Measure the distance from the rim bed to the wheel axis, R, or calculate R from the length of the chain L (R=L/2π). Tighten the chain ends with a tiewrap, so that the chain cannot move.

Image

Now again give the wheel a good spin and record 5-6 consecutive rotations. Because of the added mass, the wheel will slow down less. Again make a plot of the rotation period against time en determine the best-fit slope, S2. Clearly, S2 is smaller than S1.

Now back to the physics.
Adding a mass M at a distance R from the rotation axis, has increased the moment of inertia of the wheel in the second experiment to J+M*R².
So we have two equations :
(1) S1 = 2π * DF/J
(2) S2 = 2π * DF/(J+M*R²) (i.e. assuming that the chain does not affect the aerodynamic drag).
Resolving for J gives : J = M*R²/(S1/S2-1)
and : DF = J * S1/2π

The trick with the bicycle chain is thus to add a known amount to the moment of inertia of the wheel. From the effect of this on the slope, the original moment of inertia can be deduced and the damping factor.

More accurate than a stopwatch, which is difficult to operate accurately for rotation periods of less than 2 seconds, is a video camera of known frame speed. Count the number of frames before the bright sticker returns to the reference position.

Let me know if it works.

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c2jonw
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by c2jonw » October 18th, 2022, 11:03 am

If I were to summarize, in my own mind, I now believe that one can compare their performance with others disregarding Drag Factor, Wherein each person sets the damper to a position that feels best for them.
This is good to know
And as a side note, although my Model A does not have a variable damper (and indeed no cage) it does have six gears; so I can set the degree of difficulty pulling similar to a cyclist setting the gear ratio on their bike. If two cyclists race each other, one in a high gear and the other in a low gear, and they reach the finish line at the same time, then they have expended the same amount of energy, although one has pedalled faster than the other in getting there.
All correct. The PM uses the observed rate of flywheel deceleration to calculate drag factor and with the known Moment Of Inertia of the flywheel the PM does its power calculations- so DF is an important value. As mentioned, DF is not displayed on the PM when on Model A mode primarily because there is no damper and therefore no way for the user to easily adjust DF. DF is being calculated and does change with temperature, air pressure, proximity to walls, etc. The Model A uses gearing (5 or 6 sprockets) to change the resistance. When you set your monitor to Model A it is using a Model A flywheel MOI which is different from all other models. Model B has a damper and two sprockets to achieve a very wide resistance range, and Models CDE all achieve the resistance range with damper only.
72 year old grandpa living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......

Nomath
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by Nomath » October 18th, 2022, 11:32 am

@c2jonw
You could as well list the MOI of the Model A wheel. It saves the topic poster the hassle of wrapping a chain around his wheel. Model A is no longer made, so you are not giving away sensitive proprietary information.
Although my method is a nice example of an exercise in experimental physics...

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c2jonw
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by c2jonw » October 18th, 2022, 12:00 pm

@c2jonw
You could as well list the MOI of the Model A wheel. It saves the topic poster the hassle of wrapping a chain around his wheel. Model A is no longer made, so you are not giving away sensitive proprietary information.
Although my method is a nice example of an exercise in experimental physics...
Hey NOMATH, I like your method as well. Truth is I'm no longer working at C2 (retirement is great!) and have no recollection of what the MOI is of an A flywheel though I suspect its significantly higher than the BCD given its mass distribution. There might be someone at C2 who has the information. :)
72 year old grandpa living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......

JaapvanE
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Re: Drag Factor on Model A

Post by JaapvanE » October 18th, 2022, 12:41 pm

Nomath wrote:
October 18th, 2022, 11:32 am
Although my method is a nice example of an exercise in experimental physics...
You could also hook up OpenRowingMonitor and adjust the flywheel inertia until the speeds match between OpenRowingMonitor and the PM1. It has the added bonus of being able to hook up games like EXR.

But your method is much more fun and experimental.
c2jonw wrote:
October 18th, 2022, 12:00 pm
Truth is I'm no longer working at C2 (retirement is great!) and have no recollection of what the MOI is of an A flywheel though I suspect its significantly higher than the BCD given its mass distribution. There might be someone at C2 who has the information. :)
Would it have a higher inertia? A model BCD has a pretty heavy flywheel compared to an A, which essentially is a lightweight bicycle wheel. Admitterd, its radius is much smaller, but the rim of the BCD looks heavy.

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