2008 review: Xeno Müller disappoints.....

[rowland]

Rock Roland said

Xeno has a problem of trying to accommodate C2 ergs on slides in his studio because of the huge amount of space required for them. The other brands of ergs offer a more compact design together with a lower risk of injury to pupils.

Only the RowPerfect offers a more compact design than A C2 on slides. The space that waterRower needs looks about the same as the C2. The other rowers requirer more space than a C2

What about back injuries from rowing without slides. If this was such a important issue to Xeno why did he choose the static Waterrower. You didn't address this issue in your last post.

His reasons for liking the WateRower were weak to me. He likes the wood Look! It was quieter for teaching and for watching Tv! He likes the soft seat and softer handle! And he liked the pull better on the water rower, after rowing on a water rower, it is the thing I most dislike about the WaterRower.

He also stated how friendly The WaterRower people are and how enjoyable it was working with them. I take that to mean more money for Xeno and his family.

Moving on to the Rowperfect. I mentioned that it looked like a old C2, model B., from looking at the cage in pictures. Since you have rowed on them Please tell me how noisy they are? Do they throw as much wind as a B did. What is their monitor like, When do you expect they will become available and how much will the price be, out the door with shipping. Thanks.
How much for the oar tech, out the door?

[JRBJR]

rockin roland said,

I have spoken to the owners of both Rowperfect and Oartec. My impression is that the Rowperfect will be marketed in competition to the C2 erg and the Oartec as a much cheaper alternative to the Biorower. Hence they are both looking at different markets but with some cross-over.

If you remember, Xeno was previously eagerly promoting the wonderful next generation "dynamic" RowPerfect erg and kept announcing on his website that it would soon be available to us here in the States. He even got one of their fancy wood handles in advance to demonstrate their development progress. That was several years ago, and his sudden switch to the "static" and slideless WaterRower suggests he finally got tired of waiting for the "new" RowPerfect.

The existing RowPerfect is very expensive, hard to acquire, and noisier than a rusty C2 Model B, and the company has absolutely no record of product marketing, customer service, or quality control on a worldwide scale. You can't even identify, much less order, replacement parts for the old erg from their website.

Now if only C2 would produce their own high-quality version of the still-uncompleted RowPerfect design and sell it themselves to customers who don't want a static erg or don't have the large floor footprint required for their sildes. But alas, the powers that be at C2 have already told me they see no need to create such an erg and have no plans to do so. They claim there are no health or injury risks associated with their current ergs if customers follow proper technique.

[rowland]

JRBJR,
That confirms what I suspected about Rowperfect rower, thanks for posting the info.

[Rockin Roland]

Here is a link to Youtube where you can view someone from MUBC rowing club using the Oartec rowing machine:

www.row2k.com/video/view.cfm?vid=904

And the distributor in the USA is the same as Wintech Racing Boats:

http://www.wintechracing.com/index.php? ... ulator.php

[Rockin Roland]

If you remember, Xeno was previously eagerly promoting the wonderful next generation "dynamic" RowPerfect erg and kept announcing on his website that it would soon be available to us here in the States. He even got one of their fancy wood handles in advance to demonstrate their development progress. That was several years ago, and his sudden switch to the "static" and slideless WaterRower suggests he finally got tired of waiting for the "new" RowPerfect.

There's no doubt that Xeno would be promoting the virtues of a Rowperfect machine instead of the WaterRower if Rowperfect hadn't taken so longer developing their new product.

The existing RowPerfect is very expensive, hard to acquire, and noisier than a rusty C2 Model B, and the company has absolutely no record of product marketing, customer service, or quality control on a worldwide scale. You can't even identify, much less order, replacement parts for the old erg from their website.

JRBJR, you are wrong here. The old version of the Rowperfect is no longer in production hence it is no longer sold anywhere. Nor would you really want to buy one knowing, for those that are patient. that a much improved more modern, user friendly and less noisy model is in the pipeline for release. Until that happens the business is pretty much putting customer enquires on hold until they have a product ready for sale.

Now if only C2 would produce their own high-quality version of the still-uncompleted RowPerfect design and sell it themselves to customers who don't want a static erg or don't have the large floor footprint required for their sildes. But alas, the powers that be at C2 have already told me they see no need to create such an erg and have no plans to do so. They claim there are no health or injury risks associated with their current ergs if customers follow proper technique.

That's rubbish. It it well documented by various rowing organizations that stationary ergs are a great injury risk. There are many elite rowers in Australia with excellent rowing technique still getting injuries that can be directly attributed to use of the stationary C2 erg.

C2 aren't allowed to build a moving flywheel erg such as the Rowperfect because of patent laws on its design. Hence they must either encourage the use of slides or be content with their hold on the gym users market.

As from 2009 all testing of rowers aiming for national selection in Australia can only be done on slides(at 115 drag for Hwt men) or a Rowperfect. Stationary C2 ergs will no longer be used.

[johnlvs2run]

C2 aren't allowed to build a moving flywheel erg such as the Rowperfect because of patent laws on its design. Hence they must either encourage the use of slides or be content with their hold on the gym users market.

A moving flywheel is not the only way to make a dynamic erg and it is certainly not the best way.

Warren Berger told me he approached C2 quite a few years ago with his own design of a dynamic erg, which is patented and he was willing to share.

C2 had absolutely no interest in changing the design, exemplified in the way they hang on to flaws like the railing being on a slope, that sticks out like a sore thumb on every erg that they make. They will never change this and will probably never improve the design of the erg.

[rowland]

john said,

C2 had absolutely no interest in changing the design, exemplified in the way they hang on to flaws like the railing being on a slope, that sticks out like a sore thumb on every erg that they make. They will never change this and will probably never improve the design of the erg.

With all the negative digs you come out with about the pm3 and the many negative comments about the D, when ever you get a opportunity. Why on earth do you keep rowing on a concept 2 rower.

You come across so unhappy and miserable with all your constant complaining and yet you have rowed millions and millions of meters on a rower you hate so much. You are like a guy in a bad relationship, you can't live with her and you can't live without her and you have been in this bad relationship for years. John, it is time for you to get a divorce!

Go out and get yourself a new WaterRower or one that would make you happy. I will be happy to give you $10.00 bucks toward the cause, I am hoping they may be others who feel the same way and can contribute to the fund to get you a new Rower. Maybe we can get C2 to do matching dollars!
Hey John, I will up my contribution to $50 to see you happily rowing into the sunset on Rower other than a C2. Come on John make the move, I believe if you make the move to a different Rower it will make lots of people around here happy, [even C2]. Best of Luck.

ps don't forget to sell your model D on ebay for top dollar.

[JRBJR]

That's rubbish. It it well documented by various rowing organizations that stationary ergs are a great injury risk. There are many elite rowers in Australia with excellent rowing technique still getting injuries that can be directly attributed to use of the stationary C2 erg.

C2 aren't allowed to build a moving flywheel erg such as the Rowperfect because of patent laws on its design. Hence they must either encourage the use of slides or be content with their hold on the gym users market.

As from 2009 all testing of rowers aiming for national selection in Australia can only be done on slides(at 115 drag for Hwt men) or a Rowperfect. Stationary C2 ergs will no longer be used.

You're starting to sound like an ill-informed shill for RowPerfect. You claim the RowPerfect people have told you the new erg will soon be available, yet we've been hearing this for several years. If their new erg's release is so iminent, why did Xeno switch over to the static WaterRower after anxiously awaiting and promoting the new RowPerfect for several years?

Nor do you sound like much of an expert on patent law. Patent duration varies widely among nations and product types. I imagine the patent on the original RowPerfect has already expired if C2 or anyone else wanted to duplicate the design.

Finally, some of us of would appreciate links to those articles you mention that definintively link stationary ergs to serious injury in elite rowers. How do they accurately control for other possible causes, such as on-water rowing or excessive resistance training with heavy weights? Might these injuries have anything to do with the extraordinary forces applied by elite rowers?

You have a penchant for making authoriative statements without substantiating anything you say. I'll gladly bet you a wooden RowPerfect handle that the "new" RowPerfect erg won't be available for the world market anytime in 2009. They had better get it to market soon if, as you assert, the old RowPerfect erg is no longer available.

[Ducatista]

It it well documented by various rowing organizations that stationary ergs are a great injury risk.

Rest easy: word on the street is the Model F will come equipped with air bags.

[Rockin Roland]

JRBJR, I'll gladly accept your bet about whether we'll see the new Rowperfect hit the market in 2009. But take care with that Rowperfect wooden handle because it's spring loaded. One of their design ideas to make it feel more like a catch hitting the water. You can also include their exclusive patent in the bet because I believe it's still current. Not that it matters because I can't see C2 showing any interest in it. The next model F from C2 will just be another basic cosmetic change.

Like with Xeno the two year wait got to me. However, I bought some slides rather than a WaterRower, to kill some of that waiting time.

As for you wanting proof that stationary C2 ergs are a high injury risk. Look, I've already posted a couple of times on this forum with that information and don't feel like I need to go through it again. However articles about this have been published in "Peak Performance" sports journal and Rowing MagOzine. Information on this subject can also be sourced from A.I.S and Rowing Australia. Even Xeno himself has made reference to it in his blogs.

Furthermore, the national coaching conference in Australia last year discussed the use of C2 stationary ergs by elite Australian rowers. Consequently they had enough issues with stationary C2 ergs to change their national team selection policy to ban their use for testing. Slides are now compulsory.

JRBJR, if you like we can add a third item to our bet. That is before the next Olympics I bet you that UK and USA national team selection will follow the lead of the Aussies and only test on slides.

But since JRBJR you are such a good spirit I might just email you some photos of the latest Rowperfect(no I'm not employed by them) prototype when I get back to the office from my summer holiday break.

[Ducatista]

As for you wanting proof that stationary C2 ergs are a high injury risk. Look, I've already posted a couple of times on this forum with that information and don't feel like I need to go through it again.

Would you mind terribly much posting links to those posts? For the common good, and all.

A search netted this thread, C2 Vs Oartec Vs Rowperfect, in which you stated "You should be listening to your body when working out on a rowing machine and not be too pre-occupied with all the data on the monitor." But more background would be helpful, I think.

[Sheepster]

Finally, some of us of would appreciate links to those articles you mention that definintively link stationary ergs to serious injury in elite rowers.

I would be interested in this too. I did a brief search of the medical literature, since I was surprised that one of the few exercise equipment that I can actually use without injury would be associated with a high rate of injury. (I’m not an elite rower though.) The literature doesn’t even seem to be in agreement on how much of a difference rower design makes, and increased risk of injury is "postulated" in the more negative study, certainly not established.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picren ... obtype=pdf

This study found no difference between the two designs in terms of trunk and hip muscle activations among other variables that they measured.
http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n1/3/v4n1-3pdf.pdf

I think there are one or two other studies that I don't have access to but nothing in their abstracts suggests that they are definitive.

I did find this discussion of the Rowperfect vs. Concept II on this blog interestering.

http://fightindog.blogspot.com/2007/01/ ... pt-ii.html
http://fightindog.blogspot.com/2007/01/ ... pt-ii.html
http://fightindog.blogspot.com/2007/01/ ... rfect.html

There is evidence however, that even among elite rowers, fatigue leads to changes in form that increase loading on the lumbar spine that could increase risk of injury. (study was performed on stationary concept2). So elite rowers are not immune to deterioration of their technique under fatigue conditions or excess loading.

This is also in line with the comments by Dick Dreissigacker quoted in the blog which discuss the issues with rowing with too high a damper setting, or with low stroke rate/high power rowing.

It's not entirely clear to me that on the water rowing is safer for the back (or other injuries) compared to a stationary erg, particular for sweep rowers. There are other forces that come into play that might actually increase lumbar stress and risk of injury. But I'm no expert.

I think the only thing everyone seems to be in agreement on is that dynamic erging more closely approximates on the water rowing although still imperfectly.

From the rehab perspective (my interest), I was wondering, can the Row Perfect even be adapted for adaptive rowing? I'm not that familiar with it, but it doesn't seem that this would be easy.

In any case, (per the original thread topic) the water rower is also a static erg. For those interested, there is a research article comparing the Concept2 to WaterRower, that does seem to somewhat favor Concept2.

http://www.jssm.org/vol5/n1/6/v5n1-6pdf.pdf

Personally I wouldn’t want to deal with the water (even if you can wash your clothes in it.) I recall someone else mentioning elsewhere that the water in the rowers at his gym became very disgusting. I don’t clean the dust out of my concept 2, I get rewarded by a lower drag which is what I would like anyways (damper is already set to one).

[JRBJR]

Sheepster,

Thanks for the links to those studies. As you note, the findings are mixed, even inconclusive with regard to soft tissue damage and other back injuries. I wonder exactly what data the Australians have that compels them to forbid the use of fixed ergs by their elite rowers, if that is indeed the case.

Concept2 is a large global corporation with a long history of excellent customer service and extensive promotion of their ergs as safe and healthy alternatives to on-water rowing and other forms of exercise. I can't understand why they would continue to insist on using only the fixed erg design if it is as dangerous as the Australians purportedly claim it is.

To date, C2 has made no attempt to mitigate their potential liablility if their ergs can under certain circumstances cause lower back injuries. If the legal risk is so significant given their huge customer base and assets, you'd expect them to do something to protect themselves. Perhaps by posting a warning statement in their erg documentation or a label affixed to the erg itself, or by distributing a more comprehesive and relevant erg technique DVD with their product.

From all I've heard and read, the top brass at C2 don't think this fixed erg vs. dynamic erg debate is really an issue, medically or legally.

[Sheepster]

Sheepster,

Thanks for the links to those studies. As you note, the findings are mixed, even inconclusive with regard to soft tissue damage and other back injuries. I wonder exactly what data the Australians have that compels them to forbid the use of fixed ergs by their elite rowers, if that is indeed the case.

Yes the second study I cited actually concludes:

The outcome of this study suggests that the two different ergometer designs are equally useful for dry land training.

I think the issue is that there are a lot of other variables besides type of ergometer that determine injury risk and how one trains is probably at least, if not more important than design, once one reaches a certain design quality level. In terms of warnings, Concept2 does recommend consulting a physician before beginning a training program. I'm not sure one could be more specific than that since risks differ depending on the individual and their health history.

[peteyddotcom]

C2 had absolutely no interest in changing the design, exemplified in the way they hang on to flaws like the railing being on a slope, that sticks out like a sore thumb on every erg that they make. They will never change this and will probably never improve the design of the erg.

Good grief! With that wooden monstrosity Model B that you sold on ebay, you couldn't take a couple of scrap pieces of wood to make your current C2 rail not slope?

Kwitcherbitchin and move on, you nut!