What is "free rate" pace?

[john_n]

Recently just before a 30 minute online session, in response to another rower's question about what I would do for the 30 minutes, I told him that I was going to try doing 30r20 for the first time but that I wasn't sure what pace to aim for. He seemed to know a lot about the subject because he immediately asked, "What is your free rate spm and pace?"

I didn't know what he meant by that so I just pulled a couple numbers out of the air and said 28 and 2:05. I probably should have asked him what he meant, but it was almost start time and I didn't want to delay the start of the online session by showing my ignorance.

Then he wrote, "You should aim for a pace of 2:12 and go from there."

When the session started, I discovered that it took all of my focus to keep the SPM at 20 and so I just disregarded what the pace was and focused on the 20 SPM.

It was a lot harder than I thought it would be and the last minute of those 30 seemed to be a very, very long minute.

After the session was over my average pace had been about 2:08 and the other guy said "You did bloody well..." and added that he thought the free rate pace I'd told him of 2:05 was too low and that when my free rate stroke rate was 28, my pace "should be quite a bit higher" or something to that effect.

So my question is: When someone is rowing at a free rate stroke rate, what is meant by the free rate pace? Would it be the fastest pace I could muster or the laziest, most leisurely pace or something in between? ...because I still don't know what the right answer is, to the question "What is your free rate SPM and pace?" and if you asked me, I'd either pull a couple numbers out of the air again or I'd be more frank and say I don't know.

[gregsmith01748]

Hi John,

"Free Rate" just means that there is no restriction on your SPM. By Free Rate pace and rate, you were being asked to provide specific history for a 30 minute unrestricted row. It sounds like you might not have done a row like that or had the data. The reason that you were asked for both is that there is a strong relationship between stroke rate and pace. The more strokes per minute, the faster the pace. So, think about two specific cases.

1. 30 minutes, rate: 35, pace 2:05
2. 30 minutes, rate: 24, pace 2:05

So, the pace is the same for both of these unrestricted rows. But the rate is way different. I would expected that rower #2 could probably do a 30r20 at about a 2:10 pace. Rower #1 would be a lot slower, maybe a 2:20 or something.

[hjs]

Simply put free rate is a strokerate that gives you your best result. So you row on feel and don,t restrict yourself in any way.

[john_n]

Thanks to both of you, Greg and hjs! - your answers and also the combination of both of your answers make sense and satisfy the question in my mind.

So it seems that when I answered the guy's question that my "free rate" spm and pace were the random numbers of 28 and 2:05, he was drawing on a lot of experience to reply that my pace for 30r20 should be about 2:12.

I had assumed that maybe there was some sort of formula. But the formula seems to be the fuzzy math of experience.

Thanks again, to both of you.

[gregsmith01748]

So, there isn't a pure formula, but the basic relationship is that you will naturally row about 3-4 seconds faster for every 2 spm higher you rate. If you are interested, here's a spreadsheet about it, created by someone much smarter than I am.

http://www.biorow.com/Downloads_files/E ... d-Rate.xls

The tricky part is that the level of effort goes up along with the rate and pace, so there is a bit of judgement to figure out if someone can actually hold a higher rate (and pace) for the full time trial.

[hjs]

So, there isn't a pure formula, but the basic relationship is that you will naturally row about 3-4 seconds faster for every 2 spm higher you rate. If you are interested, here's a spreadsheet about it, created by someone much smarter than I am.

http://www.biorow.com/Downloads_files/E ... d-Rate.xls

The tricky part is that the level of effort goes up along with the rate and pace, so there is a bit of judgement to figure out if someone can actually hold a higher rate (and pace) for the full time trial.

Here I don,t agree Greg.

last season roughly speaking on say a 30/20 piece I pulled 1.49, free rate (for me 26/27) I pulled 1.45. So per extra stroke I got 0,6 seconds on the average. That 3/4 seconds per every 2 spm would have ment 12 seconds roughly between free rate and rate 20. Such a gap is very rare. You yourself don,t have that.

Other point, the longer the distance, the less the difference between free rate and restricted.

And the stronger, taller a rower is, the less restriction a rate cape gives. Which when you think about makes perfect sence.

[gregsmith01748]

So, there isn't a pure formula, but the basic relationship is that you will naturally row about 3-4 seconds faster for every 2 spm higher you rate. If you are interested, here's a spreadsheet about it, created by someone much smarter than I am.

http://www.biorow.com/Downloads_files/E ... d-Rate.xls

The tricky part is that the level of effort goes up along with the rate and pace, so there is a bit of judgement to figure out if someone can actually hold a higher rate (and pace) for the full time trial.

Here I don,t agree Greg.

last season roughly speaking on say a 30/20 piece I pulled 1.49, free rate (for me 26/27) I pulled 1.45. So per extra stroke I got 0,6 seconds on the average. That 3/4 seconds per every 2 spm would have ment 12 seconds roughly between free rate and rate 20. Such a gap is very rare. You yourself don,t have that.

Other point, the longer the distance, the less the difference between free rate and restricted.

And the stronger, taller a rower is, the less restriction a rate cape gives. Which when you think about makes perfect sence.

That was the point of my last sentence. I completely agree with you. That longer pieces are limited by your cardio vascular fitness, and the ability to row faster at higher rates is limited by the fact that it's more taxing.

[hjs]

That was the point of my last sentence. I completely agree with you. That longer pieces are limited by your cardio vascular fitness, and the ability to row faster at higher rates is limited by the fact that it's more taxing.

Last point from rowing is a bit a typical, beginners not seldom use a 1/1 ish stroke, drive/recovery. Which is pretty natural, look at cycling, running etc. after a while the stroke alters, with a shorter drive time versus recovery.
In short this means that the stroke gets stronger and people are able to row relative faster at lower rates.

Hope this makes some sence. I for instance now can do ut2 rows (aerobic work) at a decent pace for me rate 16/18. But my top end free aerobic pace is not better. The stroke has gotten stronger, but my aerobic fitness can,t fully keep up.

[gregsmith01748]

That was the point of my last sentence. I completely agree with you. That longer pieces are limited by your cardio vascular fitness, and the ability to row faster at higher rates is limited by the fact that it's more taxing.

Last point from rowing is a bit a typical, beginners not seldom use a 1/1 ish stroke, drive/recovery. Which is pretty natural, look at cycling, running etc. after a while the stroke alters, with a shorter drive time versus recovery.
In short this means that the stroke gets stronger and people are able to row relative faster at lower rates.

Hope this makes some sence. I for instance now can do ut2 rows (aerobic work) at a decent pace for me rate 16/18. But my top end free aerobic pace is not better. The stroke has gotten stronger, but my aerobic fitness can,t fully keep up.

Right now, it feels like everything is getting slower.

[hjs]

If so Greg, maybe you should aim a bit differently, around 50, nomatter what father time has the upperhand.
Look at stuff where you still have room?

[gregsmith01748]

It was more of a flippant comment. My main struggle is trying to figure out what my priorities are. I know that there is a strong correlation between training time and results. I just don't have as much time as I did.

[john_n]

Interesting discussion between you, Greg and hjs.

I looked at the Excel spreadsheet you provided Greg, but... I'm using a Mac and for some reason that Excel spreadsheet doesn't carry over correctly to Numbers, the Apple spreadsheet. (Cells A and B report that The operator “*” expects a number, but cell C_ contains a date."

But I get the idea and the spreadsheet formula probably wouldn't apply to results for me anyway, since ... though I've been telling my kids for decades that I'm 39 years old... I'm technically 31 years beyond that. So the spreadsheet formulas might need to be skewed one way or the other to be as relevant to me as they are to the younger rowers whose data was studied for the formula.

Now that I understand the question "What is your free rate spm and pace," though, I still won't have a ready answer in most cases since I don't push myself to race any where near frequently enough to have a really firm idea.

The best I've ever done in the standard distance for comparison of the 2K was in 2010 when I decided to try to do a sub 7. I approached it by doing the first split the slowest and increasing the pace with each split so that the last was the fastest and rowed with enough effort to drop the average pace displayed on the PM to just under 1:45 before the end of the last 500m.

But I didn't know how hard I should push or if I should try that hard again, since I've known so many guys (at work) who've told about injuring themselves at the gym and I didn't want to become another one of those statistics.

Rowing that hard is for very young people or for people who can hire expert trainers or coaches to help them safely get from wherever they are, to being able to do really well in the 2K or any other competitive distance.

It was a lot of fun and I still relish the memory of doing one sub 7, even though it was just barely a sub 7.

Now.. I'm getting my racing thrills vicariously by reading books like The Boys in the Boat, Assault on Lake Casitas, The Kiwi Pair (current read) and (next up) True Blue... by Dan Topolski.

[lindsayh]

But I didn't know how hard I should push or if I should try that hard again, since I've known so many guys (at work) who've told about injuring themselves at the gym and I didn't want to become another one of those statistics.
Rowing that hard is for very young people or for people who can hire expert trainers or coaches to help them safely get from wherever they are, to being able to do really well in the 2K or any other competitive distance.
It was a lot of fun and I still relish the memory of doing one sub 7, even though it was just barely a sub 7.

Hi John - I might disagree a little if I may.
One of the advantages of the erg is that there is very little chance of injury (tho other parts of the gym are more possible I guess) as long as your technique is good. Even really pushing it I have never had a significant injury (still well under 7' at 65 and getting faster). Another advantage of the erg is that you can still race even if much older than us and I have met a number of competitive people well over 80! I can assure you we don't need expert trainers/coaches just time, tecchnique and inclination. It is still a lot of fun. Rowing "that hard" is not just for the young I can assure you. There are only very, very few 70+ guys sub 7 but sub 7:20 can still be very satisfying and a really good low risk exercise option as we age.

[hjs]

It was more of a flippant comment. My main struggle is trying to figure out what my priorities are. I know that there is a strong correlation between training time and results. I just don't have as much time as I did.

Yeah, thats your call. A day only has 24 hours..

[hjs]

But I didn't know how hard I should push or if I should try that hard again, since I've known so many guys (at work) who've told about injuring themselves at the gym and I didn't want to become another one of those statistics.
Rowing that hard is for very young people or for people who can hire expert trainers or coaches to help them safely get from wherever they are, to being able to do really well in the 2K or any other competitive distance.
It was a lot of fun and I still relish the memory of doing one sub 7, even though it was just barely a sub 7.

Hi John - I might disagree a little if I may.
One of the advantages of the erg is that there is very little chance of injury (tho other parts of the gym are more possible I guess) as long as your technique is good. Even really pushing it I have never had a significant injury (still well under 7' at 65 and getting faster). Another advantage of the erg is that you can still race even if much older than us and I have met a number of competitive people well over 80! I can assure you we don't need expert trainers/coaches just time, tecchnique and inclination. It is still a lot of fun. Rowing "that hard" is not just for the young I can assure you. There are only very, very few 70+ guys sub 7 but sub 7:20 can still be very satisfying and a really good low risk exercise option as we age.

True, the erg is very age friendly, not that I want to push yourself in any way. Certainly do what feels right to you? But rowing a 2k and training for it, is not overly injury risky. And to me the way you rowed that dub7 was not a real max row and you very likely also did not train specific for it.

But again, don,t feel pushed.